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go over the fiscal cliff. take $1.2 trillion out of spending and tax hikes, stops the spending. mandatory spending cuts across the board. you know what? the only way to do it. only way to do it. everything else is chump change. >> dana: how do you deal with deficit reduction if you raise the taxes on a portion of the country that will pay for the government for 8.5 days? >> bob: you couple that with the social security adjustments and medicare. 'canes that is not what geithner put on the table. >> dana: that is going to be on -- >> bob: that is what is going to be on the table. >> dana: republicans held their feet on the fire. >> bob: whatever it took. >> greg: i used to think howard dean was a proctologist because he had his head up his butt but he pulled the curtain back. it's never about raising taxes on the rich because you run out of rich. >> andrea: right. >> greg: that is the point. >> eric: raise tax on everyone who pays taxes or everyone? everyone means the poor and 47% will start paying. >> greg: if you raise taxes up 2%, eight days of government? >> andrea: the dirty
go over the fiscal cliff. take $1.2 trillion out of spending and tax hikes, stops the spending. mandatory spending cuts across the board. you know what? the only way to do it. only way to do it. everything else is chump change. >> dana: how do you deal with deficit reduction if you raise the taxes on a portion of the country that will pay for the government for 8.5 days? >> bob: you couple that with the social security adjustments and medicare. 'canes that is not what geithner put...
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are you expecting the economy to go over the fiscal cliff and see these taxes go high hadder and spending cuts take effect? >> my personal view is i'm still optimistic. i think the conversation has been constructive since. do we have a solution on the table yet? no. but i'm optimistic we'll get to a framework. >> why? >> there's been enough dialogue. there's been movement. everyone seems to recognize the problem. everybody realizes there has to be a revenue component, spend component, entitlement reform component. for us, the business community and all the ceos, certainty is the greatest stimulus for us. >> do you support tax rates going higher? >> me personally, as an individual, more importantly the business community, which i'm part of. we support something inclusive. if rates were higher in a videocasset vacuum, i'm not sure we'd be supportive of that. we have to make sure the consumers, those who spends a lot of the dollars, the middle class, are protected in this exercise. >> i guess the question i'm really getting at is, do you get the revenue from tax increases or from broadening
are you expecting the economy to go over the fiscal cliff and see these taxes go high hadder and spending cuts take effect? >> my personal view is i'm still optimistic. i think the conversation has been constructive since. do we have a solution on the table yet? no. but i'm optimistic we'll get to a framework. >> why? >> there's been enough dialogue. there's been movement. everyone seems to recognize the problem. everybody realizes there has to be a revenue component, spend...
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i have two questions concerning the fiscal cliff. the cash cuts that republicans -- the spending cuts on medicare. why don't we allow them to negotiate medicare and to reduce the cost of medicine? that should save you a lot of money yearly. i agree totally about the republicans and democrats spending money stupidly just before the election. both sides voted to refurbish something like 170 army tanks that the army said they'd do not need. they went and voted to repair those tanks. why are we wasting our money? democrats want to cut taxes. host: armstrong williams? guest: we haven't gotten to affordable care and medicare and medicaid. if affordable care was administered correctly and if he did not have the special interest groups and if tort reform was not included, package you move forward in making health care work for anyone if you do not bring tort reform to the table? the medical malpractice lawsuits are out of control where doctors are paranoid and have to think twice before going through these procedures. it becomes a nightmare
i have two questions concerning the fiscal cliff. the cash cuts that republicans -- the spending cuts on medicare. why don't we allow them to negotiate medicare and to reduce the cost of medicine? that should save you a lot of money yearly. i agree totally about the republicans and democrats spending money stupidly just before the election. both sides voted to refurbish something like 170 army tanks that the army said they'd do not need. they went and voted to repair those tanks. why are we...
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cliff negotiations for some stimulus spending doesn't hurricane sandy prove that we need it here's an opportunity to. take this we have a stimulus every year of warden a trillion dollars in deficit spending at this point the president obama is like a doctor running a thousand votes with a patient who is not recovery yes there's an argument for spending more to help the people who were damaged when the federal weather service didn't warn them about the incoming storm but the larger point is this country has been following that policy for so long that we are near because if we didn't come you know didn't warn them about it and the wheels are coming off because since the reagan administration we have not. spending money on infrastructure in the united states look around you most of the infrastructure was built in the fifty's sixty's seventy's and early eighty's and then we've. been spending on government run health we're going to have star wars four trillion dollars is not to blame for what's actually happening in new york because of the storms right now and the money that it's not about
cliff negotiations for some stimulus spending doesn't hurricane sandy prove that we need it here's an opportunity to. take this we have a stimulus every year of warden a trillion dollars in deficit spending at this point the president obama is like a doctor running a thousand votes with a patient who is not recovery yes there's an argument for spending more to help the people who were damaged when the federal weather service didn't warn them about the incoming storm but the larger point is this...
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. >>> lawmakers are getting an earful about why they need to avoid the so-called fiscal cliff. >> you have to nail this down. uncertainty is killing us. >> reporter: top economists talked about the impact of tax increases and government spending cuts on the middle class. >> a couple thousand dollars, means a couple months rent for this family. >> reporter: the white house has made clear the country could go over the cliff, if republicans refused to raise taxes on the top 2% of american earners. >> for them to be burdened, unnecessarily, because democrats and republicans aren't coming together to solve this problem, gives you a sense of the costs involved in very personal terms. >> reporter: republican leaders say they will close loopholes loopholes and eliminate tax breaks to raise money. but insist that bush-era tax cuts must be extended for all americans. >> reporter: the standoff and the country's skyrocketing debt, concerns ryan shenecki. so much so that he's the guy in the suit, dancing gangnam style with former senator allen simpson. >> i'm keeping up on this baby. >> reporter:
. >>> lawmakers are getting an earful about why they need to avoid the so-called fiscal cliff. >> you have to nail this down. uncertainty is killing us. >> reporter: top economists talked about the impact of tax increases and government spending cuts on the middle class. >> a couple thousand dollars, means a couple months rent for this family. >> reporter: the white house has made clear the country could go over the cliff, if republicans refused to raise taxes...
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the fiscal cliff, the thing we have continued to look at is our economy. today in the whip's office we will have small family-owned businesses in there and talk about ways to protect the family business, continue to grow while at the same time make sure we solve this fiscal cliff. look, each and every day as we walk the halls, you continue to ask the questions. you want the answers to solving the fiscal cliff. we put the offer on the table and the president now has to engage. the next 72 hours are critical. if he sits back and continues to play politics, that will give you the answer of where we're going. this is the opportunity for the country to lead and opportunity for the president to lead. >> as these fiscal cliff negotiations and debate continues, i think it's important to remember that washington doesn't have a revenue problem, it has a spending problem. and under this administration, under president obama, we have seen record deficits and a record debt accumulate, and yet he keeps demanding that we have seen record deficits and a record debt accumu
the fiscal cliff, the thing we have continued to look at is our economy. today in the whip's office we will have small family-owned businesses in there and talk about ways to protect the family business, continue to grow while at the same time make sure we solve this fiscal cliff. look, each and every day as we walk the halls, you continue to ask the questions. you want the answers to solving the fiscal cliff. we put the offer on the table and the president now has to engage. the next 72 hours...
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a series of tax cuts and spending cuts set to kick in just 26 shopping days until the fiscal cliff. >> brian: less working days. >> steve: that's right. house republicans say there will be no deal if tax ritz go up and the obama administration says it's ready to go thelma and louise style over the cliff on january 1. if that's the case, wendell goler live at the white house with what we know is going on behind the scenes. anything happening? >> steve, the president and house speaker john boehner talked on the phone yesterday, but they agreed not to characterize their conversation. so it's unclear how much progress they made. from the outside, it does seem they've moved a bit closer with boehner now agreeing to raise tax collection from the wealthy, though not by raising tax rates. >> we've got to cut spending and i believe to put revenues on the table. the revenues we're putting on the table will come from, guess who, the rich! there are ways to limit deductions, close loopholes, and have the same people pay more of their money to the federal government without raising tax rates which
a series of tax cuts and spending cuts set to kick in just 26 shopping days until the fiscal cliff. >> brian: less working days. >> steve: that's right. house republicans say there will be no deal if tax ritz go up and the obama administration says it's ready to go thelma and louise style over the cliff on january 1. if that's the case, wendell goler live at the white house with what we know is going on behind the scenes. anything happening? >> steve, the president and house...
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it's 10:00 on the east coast and we begin with brooking news on the looming fiscal cliff. and signs of a potential fall. for the past few nights we've been telling you about the frustrating lack of progress to avert a deal on automatic tax hikes and spending cuts that kick in less than four weeks from now. poll after poll shows the american people want compromise. but there weren't many signs that was going to happen, nothing was getting done. in a cnn/crc poll, 67% said washington officials would behave like spoiled children in the fiscal cliff discussions. only 28% said they would behave like responsible adults. tonight, signs that maybe some adult behavior might be prevail. and a compromise might be reached. joining me now, dana bash, jessica yellin, and david gergen. what's the latest? >> reporter: they are a long way from a deal. but late today speaker boehner and president obama did speak to one another on the phone. now, this is an important development because it's the first time they've talked in a week about the fiscal cliff. i am told, though, that there was no
it's 10:00 on the east coast and we begin with brooking news on the looming fiscal cliff. and signs of a potential fall. for the past few nights we've been telling you about the frustrating lack of progress to avert a deal on automatic tax hikes and spending cuts that kick in less than four weeks from now. poll after poll shows the american people want compromise. but there weren't many signs that was going to happen, nothing was getting done. in a cnn/crc poll, 67% said washington officials...
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getting past the fiscal cliff is an imperative. we are having a one-sided conversation. the republicans have put out a plan saying raise revenue from reach people, banseed, spending cuts, and that landed with a thud over in the white house, no response, and the president has yet to put out a balanced plan, and what we got is i want $1.6 trillion in tax revenue. give it to me. gerri: and rid of the debt ceiling. >> we've seen this movie before. no ceiling, give me the revenue, i'll spend it. now what? until cuts are in place, this doesn't make sense. gerri: i want to hear what ann coulter said about the debate. >> don't cave on everything, but republicans feed into what the media is telling america -- >> wait a minute, i want to understand. you are saying then for pr purposes, they should give into obama on the tax rate. >> not exactly. well, yeah, i guess i am -- >> you're saying obama, who is -- we don't have a revenue problem, ann. >> we lost the election, sean. gerri: what do you think of this? as a strategy, maybe it's the right thing? acknowledge that the american p
getting past the fiscal cliff is an imperative. we are having a one-sided conversation. the republicans have put out a plan saying raise revenue from reach people, banseed, spending cuts, and that landed with a thud over in the white house, no response, and the president has yet to put out a balanced plan, and what we got is i want $1.6 trillion in tax revenue. give it to me. gerri: and rid of the debt ceiling. >> we've seen this movie before. no ceiling, give me the revenue, i'll spend...
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there is plenty of data to show that people don't even know what the fiscal cliff is. it shrinks rather than expands it. you don't spend. anti-keynesian has become the same politician involved in marriage and-- >> eliot: i distinguish between the two, the theological strand of the party is more of the social, same-sex marriage. >> i don't think there is as much distinction as you think there is. >> eliot: the second category, the tea part i began as economic empowerment. you're right. folks who say get government out of medicare, there is no logic to what they're saying. do youdo you buy it, but boehner is trying to harness and hold together that is fraught with inconsistencies. >> well, first of all i agree with sam. i think-- >> eliot: am i outvoted? i'm not sure that i like this. >> it's a distinction without a difference in the first two groups, and i don't think there is a third group left not with any power. do i think boehner is trying to rein in his caucus by sending a couple of rookie pitchers down to aa? if john boehner wanted control of his caucus he could d
there is plenty of data to show that people don't even know what the fiscal cliff is. it shrinks rather than expands it. you don't spend. anti-keynesian has become the same politician involved in marriage and-- >> eliot: i distinguish between the two, the theological strand of the party is more of the social, same-sex marriage. >> i don't think there is as much distinction as you think there is. >> eliot: the second category, the tea part i began as economic empowerment....
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twenty-six days until we fall off the fiscal cliff. is that what democrats want us to do? pictures seem so. we go live to capitol hill in 10 minutes. while ngress talked about wanting to cut excess spending, the nbers may tell a different story. i will break it down coming up next. you stl think you're colder than me? nah. don tell me. tell tiny! [ ice crackling ] [ knuckles cracking ] and who are you supposed to be, back-up? handle it. what you looking at? ha! cat-like reflexes... whoa! [ male announcer ] the coors light silver bullet pint. it's bigger. it's resealable. it's still the coldest. don't you do it. don't you do it! [ male announcer ] frost brewed coors light. gerri: where would we be without senator tom coburn? without the oklahoma taxpayer dollars? this fellow brought us this image. your member this? the shrimp on on the treadmill. does anyone have? @%e national science foundation studying the effects on disease. they decided to do this, and they spend 500,000 taxpayer dollars doing this study. if you can get scieists to ste money, the senator is back with an
twenty-six days until we fall off the fiscal cliff. is that what democrats want us to do? pictures seem so. we go live to capitol hill in 10 minutes. while ngress talked about wanting to cut excess spending, the nbers may tell a different story. i will break it down coming up next. you stl think you're colder than me? nah. don tell me. tell tiny! [ ice crackling ] [ knuckles cracking ] and who are you supposed to be, back-up? handle it. what you looking at? ha! cat-like reflexes... whoa! [ male...
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taxpayer dollars without any limit at all. >> even as the fiscal cliff negotiations drag on in washington, wall street seems to be basically unphased. the dow jones has slipped only about 200 points since the election. why isn't wall street more on edge itself? william cohen is the author of "money and power, hold goldman sachs came to rule the world." the labor department came out with the applications for unemployment aid saying it fell sharply for the last week and stocks basically opened flat this morning as we've seen. some of that has to do more with europe than it does with washington. but what is your reasoning for why wall street hasn't displayed more of an impact from this fiscal cliff nonsense? >> thomas, what wall street hates most of all is uncertainty and it's counterintuitive, there's actually plenty of certainty now. what's going to be certain is taxes are going up. either we go off the cliff or the curb and then taxes rise for everybody and then maybe they get repealed for the middle class and others or we reach a deal and taxes go up for the wealthiest 2% and everybody e
taxpayer dollars without any limit at all. >> even as the fiscal cliff negotiations drag on in washington, wall street seems to be basically unphased. the dow jones has slipped only about 200 points since the election. why isn't wall street more on edge itself? william cohen is the author of "money and power, hold goldman sachs came to rule the world." the labor department came out with the applications for unemployment aid saying it fell sharply for the last week and stocks...
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president obama has the leverage in the fiscal cliff fight. he's willing to let the tax go up on the middle class. on the debt increase he doesn't have the same leverage. bob woodward pointed out that tim geithner said to president obama if the republicans stick to their guns on the debt limit bill you cannot reto it. the consequences will be so clam to us that you cannot veto it. so obama would have capitulated. megyn: that's what simon is saying now. that we shouldn't put the country in that position. >> the only way we'll get action on this debt. we keep spending and spending and raising our debt by $6 trillion every obama term. that's what catastrophic. the republicans need to stick to the boehner rule. a dollar of spending cuts for every dollar in spending increases. why give in on taxes and the fiscal cliff fight when you will have all the leverage. megyn: simon? >> in the rasmussen poll that came out today the republicans lost 10 points since the election in the congressional generic fight. they are losing this economic argument right n
president obama has the leverage in the fiscal cliff fight. he's willing to let the tax go up on the middle class. on the debt increase he doesn't have the same leverage. bob woodward pointed out that tim geithner said to president obama if the republicans stick to their guns on the debt limit bill you cannot reto it. the consequences will be so clam to us that you cannot veto it. so obama would have capitulated. megyn: that's what simon is saying now. that we shouldn't put the country in that...
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the mandatory increases across the board taxes from everyone if we go over that fiscal cliff, you got to compromise. there's nothing wrong with compromise. to some liberals on the far left, conservatives on the far right, compromise is a dirty word. you should never compromise with the other side. they hate that. they rather go over the fiscal cliff but the overwhelming majority of americans totally disagree with those hard line positions on the extreme left and the extreme right. they want to compromise and they want a deal and they want the president and john boehner, the republican leadership and democratic leadership to come up with something that avoids going over the fiscal cliff. i think that's what that poll shows. >> let me change topics for a bit. news broke just before the program that republican senator jim demint is leaving. he decided to take over the heritage foundation. i have a question for you in that was this expected? he's a staunch conservative and opponent to craving into democrats and how do those things factor into a way ahead for republicans in the senate? >>
the mandatory increases across the board taxes from everyone if we go over that fiscal cliff, you got to compromise. there's nothing wrong with compromise. to some liberals on the far left, conservatives on the far right, compromise is a dirty word. you should never compromise with the other side. they hate that. they rather go over the fiscal cliff but the overwhelming majority of americans totally disagree with those hard line positions on the extreme left and the extreme right. they want to...
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cliff. fox 5's bob barnard with the latest development. >> perhaps the phone call is a sign the two sides are trying to kick start negotiations on a tax and spending plan before mandatory cuts in government spending and tax increase goes into effect in less than a month. maryland congressman chris van hollen says he thinks there's only a 50/50 chance a compromise will be reached by the looming end of the year deadline. >> i hope we can come together. it's important to avoid the fiscal cliff. it's also important to do it the right way. >> doing it the right way obviously depends who you're speaking to. i asked maryland democrat chris van hollen, ranking member on the house budget committee, what happens if the white house and republicans in congress cannot reach a deal by january 1st? >> it doesn't necessarily mean january 2nd, you know, the world falls apart, brought it does mean is if you go into january, you know, deeply into january without having resolved these issues, taxes will go up a
cliff. fox 5's bob barnard with the latest development. >> perhaps the phone call is a sign the two sides are trying to kick start negotiations on a tax and spending plan before mandatory cuts in government spending and tax increase goes into effect in less than a month. maryland congressman chris van hollen says he thinks there's only a 50/50 chance a compromise will be reached by the looming end of the year deadline. >> i hope we can come together. it's important to avoid the...
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as you well know, we face the fiscal cliff, a series of tax hikes and spending cuts that many people think if they go into effect will put the country into recession. yet we heard the treasury secretary tim geithner say the president is willing to see the country go off the fiscal cliff if republicans do not accede to his demands. >> it's probably pretty real. but you can't get to where we need to go by cutting spending, that won't cut it. you're going to destroy a fragile economy. you can't get there by taxing your way into it and you can't grow your way out of this. you have to have a blend. when you have leaders of parties and people from the administration saying i think it will be to the advantage of the democrats to go off the cliff or i think it will be advantage to the republicans to go off the cliff or the president to go off the cliff, that's like betting your country. there's stupidity involved in that. this is big-time stuff. >> let me ask you about a report that some republicans now are perhaps willing to see the tax rates rise to some degree on top earners in exchange f
as you well know, we face the fiscal cliff, a series of tax hikes and spending cuts that many people think if they go into effect will put the country into recession. yet we heard the treasury secretary tim geithner say the president is willing to see the country go off the fiscal cliff if republicans do not accede to his demands. >> it's probably pretty real. but you can't get to where we need to go by cutting spending, that won't cut it. you're going to destroy a fragile economy. you...
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fiscal cliff. what those tax increases mean to an average american family of four earning $50,000 a year is over $2,000 in higher income taxes. add to that expiration of the alternative minimum tax patch, new taxes mandated by the federal health care bill, and the reinstatement of the death tax, which will impact the next generation of farmers, ranchers, and small business owners, which americans will see the largest tax increase in the history of our country. if all of this happens, the congressional budget office predicts the nation's economy will shrink next year and the unemployment rate could rise again. in other words, we go back into recession. i believe we can avoid the fiscal cliff and address our massive deficit but that requires doing three essential things: reforming our tax code, reforming entitlement programs, and better controlling our spending. we can get additional revenue by reforming our tax code. that means closing loopholes and limiting deductions. by closing loopholes and limi
fiscal cliff. what those tax increases mean to an average american family of four earning $50,000 a year is over $2,000 in higher income taxes. add to that expiration of the alternative minimum tax patch, new taxes mandated by the federal health care bill, and the reinstatement of the death tax, which will impact the next generation of farmers, ranchers, and small business owners, which americans will see the largest tax increase in the history of our country. if all of this happens, the...
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the president yesterday on the fiscal cliff. >> obama: let's allow higher rates to go up for the top 2% that includes all of you guests but not in anyway that is going to affect your spending, your lifestyles or the economy in any significant way. let's make sure that 98% of americans don't see a single dime in tax increases next year. 97% of small businesses don't see a single dime of tax increases next year and by doing that alone we raise almost a trillion dollars. [♪ "world news tonight" theme ♪] >> stephanie: associated press says the white house is signalling president obama is willing to let the country go over the cliff. this is a choice of the republican party if they are willing to do higher rates on the country, there is a lot to talk about, if they are not, they will push us over the cliff. tim geithner said there is no prospect in an agreement that doesn't include the tax rate going up on the top 2% of americans. he said we are not prepared to have the american economy held hostage to periodic threats. >> there you go. >> stephanie: and he pointed out, taxes were the
the president yesterday on the fiscal cliff. >> obama: let's allow higher rates to go up for the top 2% that includes all of you guests but not in anyway that is going to affect your spending, your lifestyles or the economy in any significant way. let's make sure that 98% of americans don't see a single dime in tax increases next year. 97% of small businesses don't see a single dime of tax increases next year and by doing that alone we raise almost a trillion dollars. [♪ "world...
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i'm going to tell you what others won't about the fiscal cliff. the head of starbucks said it will damage the u.s.'s reputation and shenanigans from capitol hill and with a cool 500 bucks to spend, should you use them now for a share in apple? apple says it will build some of the iconic mac computers in the u.s. listen to what apple ceo tim cook said to nbc's brian williams. >> so we've been working for years on doing more and more in the united states. next year, we will do one of our existing mac lines in the united states. >> but apple stock has been singing the blues for a few months. plummeted 25% off the all-high and a beating this week. 6.5% lower yesterday. apple up more than a percent today. kurndly around $544 a share. is now a good time to get in. you're all asking me. i'm asking katie stockton in connecticut. katie, is apple stock down off its high a phenomenally successful stock to hold for so many investors and showing the chart again. you look at technical trading patterns in the stock. do they tell you it's time to buy, sell or hol
i'm going to tell you what others won't about the fiscal cliff. the head of starbucks said it will damage the u.s.'s reputation and shenanigans from capitol hill and with a cool 500 bucks to spend, should you use them now for a share in apple? apple says it will build some of the iconic mac computers in the u.s. listen to what apple ceo tim cook said to nbc's brian williams. >> so we've been working for years on doing more and more in the united states. next year, we will do one of our...
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cliff, and he's clearly not interested at all in cutting any spending. what the president is really interested in, as we learned just yesterday, is getting as much taxpayer money as he can, first, by raising taxes on small business that he believes are making too much money and then on everybody else, not so he can lower the debt or the deficit but so he can spend to his heart's contefnlts for months the president has been saying all he wants is to raise taxes on the top 2% so he can tackle the debt and the deficit. however, yesterday he finally revealed that's not really his true intent. by demanding the power to raise the debt limit whenever he wants, by as much as he wants, he showed what he's really after is assuming unprecedented power to spend taxpayer dollars without any limit at all. this isn't about getting a handle on deficits or debt for him. it's about spending even more than he already has. why else would he demand the power to raise the debt limit on his own? by the way, why on earth would we ever consider giving a president who's brought u
cliff, and he's clearly not interested at all in cutting any spending. what the president is really interested in, as we learned just yesterday, is getting as much taxpayer money as he can, first, by raising taxes on small business that he believes are making too much money and then on everybody else, not so he can lower the debt or the deficit but so he can spend to his heart's contefnlts for months the president has been saying all he wants is to raise taxes on the top 2% so he can tackle the...
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but if there's no deal and the country goes over that fiscal cliff, taxes go up for everyone, mandatory spending cuts go into effect, a lot of folks are going to say where was the president? he was just re-elected. why couldn't he put together a package, a deal to avoid this disaster? >> i think this is a question of political leadership. and as that poll showed, there's no doubt that the president has the political advantage going into this. but at some point, and i think we're kind of getting close to it, the president has to be able to pivot and to say how do i turn this political advantage into a real policy accomplishment? and, wolf, i don't think you're going to do that with continued campaign style events like we just saw meeting with middle class families. okay. we get that. that occurred during the campaign. the white house has clearly gotten its message out. i think now there has to be a next step. you know, timing is everything in politics. and this is absolutely no different. what i'm getting from talking to some democrats on the hill is i think there's actually a lot of pen
but if there's no deal and the country goes over that fiscal cliff, taxes go up for everyone, mandatory spending cuts go into effect, a lot of folks are going to say where was the president? he was just re-elected. why couldn't he put together a package, a deal to avoid this disaster? >> i think this is a question of political leadership. and as that poll showed, there's no doubt that the president has the political advantage going into this. but at some point, and i think we're kind of...